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[Angelrama]

Hey all,


This weeks episode is Season 5 episode 22 Not Fade Away
You can find the episode description at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Fade_Away_%28Angel_episode%29
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So here we finally are. At the last episode! I just want to say how much I have enjoyed reading everybodies thoughts these last few months on season 5. It brought back great memories of the discussions I read while the show was on. Thank you all so much for contributing. I think this is something we should continue. I propose next week we have a season 5 overview discussion. Then maybe take a break to prepare for After the Fall, and then begin at episode 1 of Season 1 if people are interested:)
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Personally...I kinda wanna slay the dragon...Let's go to work!

[Nata]

Angelrama - thank you so much for this idea, it was a great experience and very rewarding too!

And I agree that we should have a thread on the season-5 overview - could I suggest a title "Season 5 Wrap Party"? We could post whatever we want about the season there - best/worst lists, thoughts on the whole, etc. It would be great and would bring us right to Angel: ATF.

Eh, now have to go and finish the reviews for the last two episodes... They had so much in them, so hard to do it all justice.
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Say it quick and say it loud: I'm a geek and I am proud!

[Angelrama]

[pshand05]

I can't review this episode. It would be the same thing, for me, as reviewing a dear friend. I did, in fact, start my review, and got this far...

[sueworld]

[Shade of Pale]

Not Fade Away.

Good idea about the overview and starting again at Series 1
Thanks, for suggesting these discussions, Angelrama. It's proved to be the perfect way to lead into 'After the Fall,' for me ! I've thoroughly enjoyed writing the reviews. Thanks to everyone else for their contributions. It's been really interesting and fun !


After Angel admits to his team that he was forced to kill Drogyn, they warily agree to his plan. Angel will kill the Archduke Sebassis, Gunn will take out the demon Senator and her Vampire followers, Wesley will tackle Sorceror Cryus Vall, Spike will rescue the baby from the Fell Bretheren - and kill them all, Illyria will take on Izzy and his friends - and the Sahrvin will be taken care of by the odd team of Lorne and Lindsey, whom Angel has recruited to help with the plan.
Having agreed to assasinate the individual members of the BT, Angel and his team, prepare for the final battle, by spending a day, doing whatever they want. They should live this day as if it were their last, instructs a grimly determined Angel - Beacause considering the odds stacked up against them, it probably will be. So begins the lead up to the final, iconic scene of ATS, where Angel, Illyria, Spike and a mortally wounded Gunn, take on the might of the Senior Partners Hellish army, which arrives on earth in the back alley of the Hyperion hotel.


The Perfect Days

Gunn

One of the most satisfying days, in terms of characterization - and the themes and issues of Angel as a whole, is Gunn's story. He visits Anne, who is still running the Homeless Shelter. In this series, we have seen Gunn unwittingly compromised by the legal brain upgrade given to him by Wolfram and Hart - and seen him fight back, becoming in the assessment of the Black Thorn, no less, uncorruptable, rediscovering what really matters to him in the process. It is totally fitting that he goes back to the origins of his story, Full circle for his character as it were. As he helps Anne pack a truck, he asks her what she would do if she found out that there is a higher, cruel power, controlling life to such an extent, that it rendered everything good thing you tried to do futile. Anne's answer is beautifully simple - she would carry on packing the truck. She would just continue, helping the helpless, as she always does. She can't worry about factors beyond her control. In terms of the themes of the show, this is such a wonderful answer. Her work never finishes, but she has to go on, making a difference.

Lorne

As tragic, as Gunn's day is uplifting. I found his perfect day as emotional this time round, as I did the last time.' If I ruled the world, everyday would be the first day of Spring..' - and he totally means it. Lorne isn't a man of violence, he can live and let live, be green and non-judgemental - and yet Angel has asked him to perform an act of violence, to kill Lindsey after their mission is completed, an act which is totally abhorent to his nature. He is the only one who can undertake this mission, because Lindsey would not view him with any suspicion at all. The world that he is currently part of is not the world of his idealistic song. he's become weary and disillusioned - and it's incredibly sad. After this one last mission, Lorne tells Angel not to look for him - he's leaving and he doesn't wish to be found. Angel and Lorne's warm and loving friendship has been effectively terminated.I do sincerely hope that if Lorne appears in 'After the Fall' that this friendship can somehow be restored, if that's possible.
The fact that it is peace-loving Lorne who has to deliver Lindsey's death blow is really disturbing. Intellectually, I could see why Lindsey couldn't be part of the solution. Lindsey, couldn't ever be fully trusted, despite the fact that he does have some capacity to be good - and he has had chances. Assuming that they are all going to die, Angel can't risk that Lindsey would not resume his former place of favour with the SP's, becoming part of the problem again - and therefore takes this very ruthless decision. It's still sad.


Spike

Another very satisfying day and for me, in some ways my favourite. Like Gunn, Spike returns to his roots - his roots as the Bloody Awful Poet. It's always good to see an aknowledgment of Spike's William persona. It's always there, sometimes buried underneath the snark and swagger he chooses to use as his shield in life - and for me, we don't really get to see enough of the vulnerable William side of Spike's personality, but here he is, the Poet ! In his heart and soul, Spike is still the 'Fool for Love' - still looking for validation through his poetry, to be appreciated for what he is. In this series, he has certainly had that appreciation from Fred - and now he throws himself of the mercy of a seemingly difficult crowd, after a few drinks to steady the nerves. The 'seemingly rowdy' audience prove themselves to be more urbane, cultured and genuinely thoughtful than the bunch of upper class snobs who teased William so unmercifully, so many years ago. His poems are still a little silly, but this audience recognizes the sincerilty behind them, and gives Spike full respect for his heart felt feelings - and his poetic delivery !
Spike's mission is to rescue the baby from the Fell bretheren - and on a shallow note, what a little cutie that baby was. It seemed to shake his head when the Bretheren asked Spike to put him back in the Basinet. Aww !.


Wes and Illyira

Another essentially tragic last day that pulled at the heartstrings.
For Wes, there is no perfect day. The love of his life is dead and he is still grieving deeply. Illyria is touched by the fact that he has chosen to spend his last day caring for her - she would like him to let her make him happy, by taking on Fred's persona for him. Giving him his perfect day. But she knows that he will not ask - and Wes points out that anyway, such a day could only be a lie. At this point, I became sure that she is deeply in love with Wes, and would like to have with him, the depth of relationship that he and Fred once shared. She is genuinely sorrowful that that cannot be. Wes can never move on from Fred to her. However, when Wes is dying from a fatal stab wound, inflicted by Vail, he allows Illyria to comfort him, by being Fred. In a heartbreaking and deeply poignant scene, Illyria gives Wes peace in his final moments as he slips into death. Even with the power and emotion of this scene, I still missed Wes being there, in the alley, with his friends. This would have been an equally fitting ending for his character as well, I feel.


Angel

Angel suffers a great loss in this episode, when he is asked to sign away his Shanshu, to finally convince the SP's of his conversion. They want to finally remove his hope of a future redemption. Although I'd hope for Angel that the Shanshu will be his again, at some point, if that is what he wants, yet I think here that it's a sacrifice that he's more than willing to make. He no longer needs the reassurances of a prophecy to motivate him - or give him hope. He'll conitinue to be a Champion, even believing that Hell is the only thing waiting for him.The Senior Partners have miscalculated seriously in their understanding of Angel here.
Angel receives some consolation for his loss, as he spends his perfect day having some one-on-one time, with his son, Connor. They discuss the normal things going on in their lives in a natural and easy way. There seems to be an instinctive understanding. This must be a dream come true for Angel, who must have thought that such a relationship would never be possible.The father/son dynamic here is a joy - and it's great to see Connor coming to help his father in his epic battle with the SP's super-powered spokesman, Hamilton. I'm glad that Angel went out to battle, safe in the knowledge, that he has his son back - and that is something really special.
Just briefly, Hamilton was a great late addition to the series. His character worked better in terms of the themes of the series,then I think that Eve did. He and Harmony made an interesting and very unexpected pairing !


And so Series 5 of five series of awesomeness comes to an epic end, with the survivng members of Angel's team, about to fight the good against overwhelming odds.Whether they survive for minutes or hours isn't the important point. The point is that the good fight never ends, and that these heroes will never fade way.

Now, onto 'After the Fall.'

[Jean-Vic]

I liked this epsiode. It was certainly one of the best of a mediocre series, IMO and I am glad they ended the season with such a good episode.

I don't have too much too say about this episode really but I'll go through everything I do have.

- Angel, in this episode among many others, shows why the Powers That Be chose him to be their champion. He signs away the one hope of redemption he had and went full on into battle knowing that he would probably die. He sacrifiiced evrything for a world that has been nothing but cruel to him and it could only be him that did it. It reaffirmed him as my favourite character because he did what I loved him for, sacrificed everything and the writers really made me happy that they showed everyone that he is a hero. All season people were questioning him, his actions and this episode just leaves them openmouthed and with nothing else to say but "Angel is a hero and a champion, even after everything the five series have thrown at him."

- I liked that Gunn ended the series like he did. It was a great message that you never stop fighting. All season we have seen them all pushed to their pinnacles and on the verge of giving up, but they all see that they must carry on. Well, Spike and Illyria don't if the ATF spoilers are anything to go off, but the two remaining AI originals are standing strong and its good to see.

- I very much enjoyed the Spike poetry. It was nice that he was finally recognised for good poetry, but it has to be entioned that there was a certain other vampire that liked his poetry way before that and I don't think it's said enough.

- Sad to see Wesley die. He was a great character and he will be sorely missed.

- Loved Illyria joining the team and trusting ina vampire she had made it clear she hated.

- Didn't like Lorne's ending. For someone who dreamed of nothing but happiness in LA with a quiet business and flashy suits, he got nothing but hell. I'm sure he'd return to Pylea in a flash if he had to choose between the two fates. Very sad.

-I just want to say this. While we were discussing Destiny, Nata was talking about the ailing Knight symbolism. He was no longer the champion of good, and how could he be with all the crap he was facing and the personal demons haunting him. But I would like to say, the knight returned here. The champion was back fighting good. It's a stark contrast between NFA and Destiny and the difference is apparent. And to highlight this, the end of the episode has the perfect symbolism. The Knight vs The Dragon. "Personally, I kinda want to slay the Dragon."

ANGEL IS BACK!!

- I used to be a negative viewer of this episode because of the fan reaction on forums etc. The fan reaction annoyed me beyond belief and the episode became something that just highlighted my point about the last season of Angel. But, having watched it time and again I realised that the episode is not to blame for the foolishness of pathetic fans who bring nothing but stupid comments and stark annoyances to the table. I realised that the episode was genuine and honest and my feelings should not be based on faan reaction. Therefore, this episode is one of my favourites of Season 5 and rightly so I feel.
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Legs: Where you hit, Johnny Tightlips?

JT: I ain't saying nothing.


No one snuggles with Max Power. They fasten their seatbelt and prepare for the Gs!!

[sueworld]

[Jean-Vic]

[DanielW]

I think it's excellent in that it allows us to see why each character is in the alley.

We've known from the beginning why Angel will be, but then we find why Gunn and Spike are and we find out why Illyria is.

Gunn and Angel are there for "the gesture" basically, they want to fight because the fight is what defines them.

Illyria is there because Wes would have been there.

And Spike's there because he saved a baby, of all the "missions" only Spikes was about life rather then death, and that is why Spike is in the Alley.

[Deborahmm]

Here's my review.

This is a dark end to what is, in many ways, the darkest season of the show, and in my view, one of the best seasons. It's also one of the best show endings - if not the best -I've ever seen, full of the shades of grey that made this show so compelling and unforgettable, though here the grey is very dark indeed.

Before I go on, I should say that the imminent publication of Angel: After the Fall has made me see this episode rather differently to how I saw it the first time I watched it. Then, there was no 'afterwards.' Angel and his friends would remain in that alley, poised on the moment of certain death, forever. Now, that's not the case, and it's therefore hard for me to see the episode in the symbolic light I originally saw it.

This time, I did what I didn't do the first time I watched this episode, (yes, believe it or not, this is only the second time I've watched it), I cried. Also, I've ended this rewatching of the final season of Angel's show feeling rather cross with him.

I said that Power Play was one of the darkest forty minutes of telly I'd ever watched, well, if you take Power Play and Not Fade Away as a two-parter, which they pretty much are, I'd have to extend that to encompass the whole. There are only two moments of hope in this latter episode. One is Anne's matter of fact, just get on with the job in hand answer to Gunn's asking her what she'd do if she knew her task was hopeless and there were forces at work making sure things never would get better for the kids in her care. In fact, in her one little scene she embodies Angel's epiphany from way back in season 2 – the one Angel himself seems to have forgotten.

The other moment of hope is Connor coming to help Angel in his fight against Hamilton. I know some people think he owes his dad an apology still for the whole throwing him into the sea in a box thing. However, after re-watching this episode, I don't think there's anything Connor needs to apologise for. He was there when Angel really needed him. Without his help, Angel might have died. And, as we've seen over and over again in both BtVS and AtS, saying you're sorry is pretty meaningless unless you back it up with deeds, which Connor does here.

Apart from these two moments and a couple of minor things about Spike – the poetry slam, which is delightful, and the rescuing of the baby from the Fell Brethren - the episode is dark as dark can be. By the end of it, Wesley and Lindsey are dead, Lorne is gone for good, and the remaining heroes, with Gunn mortally wounded, are facing certain death – and inevitably, you have to ask, was what they achieved worth such a terrible price, to the world in general and even to Angel personally?

He might well say it was for him personally, given that his son – the love of his life- came to help him, but I think he lost the trust of his friends, and I think to some extent he lost their respect also. At the end of Power Play, he barnstormed them into agreeing to his suicidal plan, but they soon have second thoughts, if not about the plan then about him, when they discover what has happened to Drogyn. Not surprisingly, they are outraged and then more outraged still when they discover the badly beaten Illyria, and not surprisingly too they wonder whether any more of them will be unwitting sacrifices in Angel's scheme before this is over.

They aren't, or at least, not in the way they imagine – though Lindsey is – but I feel very much that because of this, their farewells to Angel before they go off to fulfil their allotted tasks, are not what they should be. Lorne tells Angel to leave him in peace after this is over. What has happened – what Angel makes him do – has effectively broken him. As for Wesley, who used to be Angel's best friend, there's a brief exchange of looks between them before they part forever, that's all. It's very, very sad.

In fact, in the end, the one who lingers longest with Angel in that farewell scene is Spike. As with most things to do with Spike in these last two episodes, what he really thinks is hard to fathom, but it's probably safe to say he understands where Angel's coming from better than the others do, or at least considers his own life not of much value because of his past sins, so he might as well do some lasting damage to the bad guys and go down fighting. There's death and there's glory and there's sod all else, as he says to Buffy in The Gift.

Sadly, I fear Gunn feels the same way about himself, though he shouldn't do, as Senator Brucker makes clear in the Black Thorn conference. The bad guys are very disappointed in Gunn. He proved ultimately incorruptible.

The Wesley/Illyria scenes in this episode are pretty unbearable. Alexis and Amy are both stunningly good in Wesley's death scene, which is heartbreaking and poignant and makes me feel very angry for Wesley's sake. It's also worth noting that, despite herself, Illyria's burgeoning feelings for Wesley are unmistakeable. She loves him, I think, just as Fred did.

As for Lindsey, he's not a character for whom I have much fondness but I have to say, I felt bad for him this time. I felt sorry for Eve too, and for the first time, I actually believed Lindsey loved her.

Okay, having mentioned each of the characters in turn – except Harmony, I suppose, whose exit is yet more comedy gold, and I'm very glad she survived – I should try and gather together the strands of the episode and attempt to work out what it all means for Angel himself.

I want to see this as being Angel breaking free from his ties both to the Senior Partners when he turns on them and to the PTBs when he signs away the Shanshu, and symbolically, both these things are true. However, this time, they don't come across as acts of existential heroism, no matter how I try to wank it to myself, but more as acts of suicidal despair, unfortunately. Maybe I'm too close to it at the moment - this re-watching has been intense -and need to take a step back, like I managed to the first time I watched this episode? I know ME meant to leave us with a sense of hope, not of despair (at least, I assume so) or at least to still see Angel's last stand as heroic. However, when you really consider his actions in these last two episodes, it's hard to do so entirely- and harder still when we know that he and his friends won't remain frozen in that moment in the alley forever but will instead go on to reap the whirlwind they've sown.

All I can say is, though Angel is still backed by Gunn, Illyria and Spike in that alley, he is very much alone – far more than they are, because though they might be there of their own free will, ultimately, they're Angel's pawns. He's responsible for their deaths, or for whatever bad stuff happens to them next. He didn't mean to do it to them, I know, but he has.

I think we see ramifications of that already in the hints we've been given about Angel: After the Fall. Some of Angel's friends at least are not happy with him, and no reason why they should be.

Trivia

I don't think there are any really, but the last perfect day the characters choose are certainly perfect for them. Spike gets to recite his poetry to an appreciative audience, Gunn gets back to his roots, Lorne sings, and Angel is reconciled with his beloved son and they talk for the first time like a father and son should.

Best line: Connor (re Angel saying he has very nice handwriting): You're such a girl!

Should just conclude by saying that this is JMO. I know not everyone will agree. However, one thing I've always loved about AtS is that it's never shrunk from showing its hero in a less than flattering light. Angel has done many dark and troubling things during the run of the show. Sometimes they were caused by the emotions we're all prey to, sometimes, they were tough choices forced on him because of his role as leader. That remains true to the very end of his show. IMO that makes him more interesting, not less heroic, and very much more human. I'm looking forward to finding out what he does next.

Thanks to Angelrama for setting up the re-watching. It's been intense, as I said, but it's been fun.
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Aargh! 'Shippers! There goes the neighbourhood.

[Deborahmm]

[DanielW]

My favourite TV series (besides the notoriously optimistic Doctor Who) is an old BBC series called Blake's Seven.
It's about a bunch of convicted criminals in an alien spaceship standing against a Totalitarian Regieme.

And it ends with EVERYONE DEAD. The title character is shot by the other lead, and everyone else gunned down by the forces of the regieme.


Not Fade Away... is closest to this bleak ending I've ever seen, and yet, unlike the defeat that is the end of B7, NFA is a victory for all involved, they ARE standing against evil, they know they're going to die, but what matters is that a stand is made, the line is drawn for a reason.

[Jean-Vic]

[Deborahmm]